 |
Uncensored Justice System Discussion
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
JUSTICE1st
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 715
Location: USA
|
 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: PRESIDENT Obama, at last |
 |
|
I'm not going to try and outdo Jami Floyd's LAST WORD today, because she said everything I wanted to say, in less than a minute or two. All I can say is that I agree with every word of it, and now we can hope, when now PRESIDENT-ELECT Obama takes the Oath of Office in January, 2009, some of us can try and enlist his assistance and that of others in one of the many things that need of a massive overhaul in this country. One of which, of course, is our badly-broken "criminal justice system."
For a few days, we can celebrate a triumph in this historic election, then we all need to "get back to work." Would anyone disagree that one of our top priorities is getting an Innocence Commission in place for each of the 50 states? I think that would be the best project to start with, but a list of other ones wouldn't be a bad idea either. 
J 
_________________
"We must remember, always, that accusation is not proof, and conviction depends on evidence and due process of law."
EDWARD R. MURROW, 1954 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
SaberGal
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 349
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
It certainly was a historic day for the country, J! While I don't agree with Obama on many issues, I most definitely am hopeful that he can and will implement some much needed reform within the "justice" system that a more conservative leader wouldn't touch. I agree that the system is badly broken and in desperate need of repair. I think that is possible in an Obama administration.
I think than an "Innocence Commission" is the perfect place to start - with the provision that the people on the commission are from a non-government background....just average John/Jane Q. Citizen whose only motive is to see justice served and truth revealed no matter who is exposed.
A close second on the list should have something to do with real punishment for prosecutors/LE/defense attorneys/judges - basically any officer of the court - who has built their careers on unethical/illegal practices for the sake of their own career advancements.
JMHO, as always
_________________
"Evil triumphs when good men do nothing."
- E. Burke
__________________________________________
That's OK. I wasn't using my civil liberties anyway. (Insert rolly eye emoticon here) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JUSTICE1st
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 715
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SaberGal wrote: | It certainly was a historic day for the country, J! While I don't agree with Obama on many issues, I most definitely am hopeful that he can and will implement some much needed reform within the "justice" system that a more conservative leader wouldn't touch. I agree that the system is badly broken and in desperate need of repair. I think that is possible in an Obama administration.
I think than an "Innocence Commission" is the perfect place to start - with the provision that the people on the commission are from a non-government background....just average John/Jane Q. Citizen whose only motive is to see justice served and truth revealed no matter who is exposed.
A close second on the list should have something to do with real punishment for prosecutors/LE/defense attorneys/judges - basically any officer of the court - who has built their careers on unethical/illegal practices for the sake of their own career advancements.
JMHO, as always |
Hi Saber! Great to see you, as always. I agree with both your statements about proposed Innocence Commissions. On the commissions, I would say that someone who was an EX-government official, but not a current one, would be helpful, simply for background experience, such as law. If not that, ask law professors around the country to volunteer for brief terms, the same as jurors do. Or pay them small salaries so they aren't sacrificing income to support their families.
I can think of at least two law professors who would be a terrific asset to an Innocence Commission; one is Prof. Jonathan Turley at George Washington University School of Law and a practicing attorney as well, and of course John Dean, who was a former White House official during the Nixon Administration, and has written several books on the state of the government.
As to your other idea about a committee of some kind to investigate prosecutors/LE/defense attorneys/judges - basically any officer of the court who has had formal complaints of official misconduct filed against them by either inmates or their families, loved ones or friends. Again, I think we would need law professionals serving in some capacity here as well, to make sure we are on safe ground.
I'm going to move this to a separate thread in the "Criminal Justice Reform" discussion area, so we can generate more good ideas, and with luck, turn them into real entities.
J
_________________
"We must remember, always, that accusation is not proof, and conviction depends on evidence and due process of law."
EDWARD R. MURROW, 1954 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SaberGal
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 349
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, I suppose you are right - an ex-government official would probably be helpful for background experience and knowing the 'ropes' so to speak. LOVE the idea of Law Professors.
_________________
"Evil triumphs when good men do nothing."
- E. Burke
__________________________________________
That's OK. I wasn't using my civil liberties anyway. (Insert rolly eye emoticon here) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JUSTICE1st
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 715
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SaberGal wrote: | | Yes, I suppose you are right - an ex-government official would probably be helpful for background experience and knowing the 'ropes' so to speak. LOVE the idea of Law Professors. |
I think both law professors and active criminal defense attorneys serving would be important to keeping things functioning smoothly.
I've been trying to put together some kind of list of what we want a new Innocence Commission to accomplish, and then start writing to various people in government once the new Obama Administration is official after January 20, 2009.
The last thing citizens, particularly wrongfully convicted persons and their families/loved ones/friends need is another commission that promises a lot but delivers nothing. As always, any suggestions and ideas are welcome! Not to mention VOLUNTEERS.
J
_________________
"We must remember, always, that accusation is not proof, and conviction depends on evidence and due process of law."
EDWARD R. MURROW, 1954 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SaberGal
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 349
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JUSTICE1st wrote: | | SaberGal wrote: | | Yes, I suppose you are right - an ex-government official would probably be helpful for background experience and knowing the 'ropes' so to speak. LOVE the idea of Law Professors. |
I think both law professors and active criminal defense attorneys serving would be important to keeping things functioning smoothly.
I've been trying to put together some kind of list of what we want a new Innocence Commission to accomplish, and then start writing to various people in government once the new Obama Administration is official after January 20, 2009.
The last thing citizens, particularly wrongfully convicted persons and their families/loved ones/friends need is another commission that promises a lot but delivers nothing. As always, any suggestions and ideas are welcome! Not to mention VOLUNTEERS.
J |
Most any representative from a 'Defense" perspective will most likely get a thumbs up from me if only to level the playing field.
Haven't got around to asking Hotwater yet, but will ask her to set up a forum for the 8 year old out in Arizona accused of premeditated, double homicide - did you see the 'interrogation' video yet? Just when you think it can't get any worse....LE should never have questioned him without an attorney, parent, or an advocate on his behalf present, IMO.
I agree with you regarding the empty promises that wrongfully incarcerated (be it fully innocent or over-charged) inmates need is another barrel of empty promises....what Pres-elect Obama intends to do with Gitmo detainees, I sure hope he will continue into stateside facilities as well.
Always, JMO
_________________
"Evil triumphs when good men do nothing."
- E. Burke
__________________________________________
That's OK. I wasn't using my civil liberties anyway. (Insert rolly eye emoticon here) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JUSTICE1st
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 715
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SaberGal wrote: | | JUSTICE1st wrote: | | SaberGal wrote: | | Yes, I suppose you are right - an ex-government official would probably be helpful for background experience and knowing the 'ropes' so to speak. LOVE the idea of Law Professors. |
I think both law professors and active criminal defense attorneys serving would be important to keeping things functioning smoothly.
I've been trying to put together some kind of list of what we want a new Innocence Commission to accomplish, and then start writing to various people in government once the new Obama Administration is official after January 20, 2009.
The last thing citizens, particularly wrongfully convicted persons and their families/loved ones/friends need is another commission that promises a lot but delivers nothing. As always, any suggestions and ideas are welcome! Not to mention VOLUNTEERS.
J |
Most any representative from a 'Defense" perspective will most likely get a thumbs up from me if only to level the playing field.
Haven't got around to asking Hotwater yet, but will ask her to set up a forum for the 8 year old out in Arizona accused of premeditated, double homicide - did you see the 'interrogation' video yet? Just when you think it can't get any worse....LE should never have questioned him without an attorney, parent, or an advocate on his behalf present, IMO.
I agree with you regarding the empty promises that wrongfully incarcerated (be it fully innocent or over-charged) inmates need is another barrel of empty promises....what Pres-elect Obama intends to do with Gitmo detainees, I sure hope he will continue into stateside facilities as well.
Always, JMO |
I hope he will too, although I doubt much, if anything, will happen unless he gets letters from concerned citizens and voters requesting politely, but firmly that this be done.
Criminal justice issues almost always seem to be the subjects that all politicians want to avoid, for fear of "offending" someone, but they really need to look at the issues from the other side. Do these officials want to be perceived as callously turning their backs on the wrongfully convicted and ignoring what they, their family members and friends go through? Too many politicians have already done that, and I don't think they should be allowed to sweep these topics under the rug just because they are "politically sensitive."
As I mentioned once, I wrote to now President-Elect Obama when he was "Senator Obama," earlier this year. I'm definitely not afraid to write him another one, but I will wait until he formally takes office, since it makes no sense to write at this point. Hmmm...maybe I'll just write the letter now, but save it for mailing later. 
Regarding the case of the accused 8-year-old in AZ, what the LE officials did is, as far as I'm concerned, an outrage and a disgrace! I didn't see the actual video, but in depriving him of a parent, an attorney or both during this interrogation, they stripped this CHILD of all his civil rights! And this is precisely why LE in many states, if not all of them, need to have more watchdog groups monitoring their "interview techniques" than there are now. Torture doesn't have to be just physical, it can -- and often is -- emotional and psychological too, especially for someone so young.
J
_________________
"We must remember, always, that accusation is not proof, and conviction depends on evidence and due process of law."
EDWARD R. MURROW, 1954 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pia
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 208
Location: www.freecynthia.com
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Is the eight year old you mentioned the one who killed his father and another man? Please tell me there were not two eight-year olds that have killed people recently...or ever.
Are there any updates on that case?
As far as Obama, I hope writing to him will get some attention but I really don't see it happening. They have turned their backs on this kind of thing because most people are under the assumption that if they are convicted, they MUST be guilty. Just like prosecutors that refuse to do anything to help someone that they KNOW is innocent. Once a person is convicted you have to walk through fire to get the truth out. Doing that easily will mean that they have to admit to a mistake. Because a lot of them think they are God and not human, THEY could never be guilty of making a mistake.
_________________
Justice is conscience, not a personal conscience but the conscience of the whole of humanity. Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience usually recognize also the voice of justice.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kristi
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 29
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JUSTICE1st wrote: |
As I mentioned once, I wrote to now President-Elect Obama when he was "Senator Obama," earlier this year. I'm definitely not afraid to write him another one, but I will wait until he formally takes office, since it makes no sense to write at this point. Hmmm...maybe I'll just write the letter now, but save it for mailing later.
J |
I cant remember where exactly, somewhere on the ACLU website they said Obama's staff was excepting letters, scratch that, asking for letters from citizens explaining what they would like to see done. I cant for the life of me remember where on the site I saw it, as I was combing through hundreds of sites yesterday looking for was to raise quick funds for Raye's lawyer, but its somewhere on aclu.org
_________________
My opinion of course....gotta love freedom of speech! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SaberGal
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 349
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pia wrote: | Is the eight year old you mentioned the one who killed his father and another man? Please tell me there were not two eight-year olds that have killed people recently...or ever.
Are there any updates on that case?
As far as Obama, I hope writing to him will get some attention but I really don't see it happening. They have turned their backs on this kind of thing because most people are under the assumption that if they are convicted, they MUST be guilty. Just like prosecutors that refuse to do anything to help someone that they KNOW is innocent. Once a person is convicted you have to walk through fire to get the truth out. Doing that easily will mean that they have to admit to a mistake. Because a lot of them think they are God and not human, THEY could never be guilty of making a mistake.
|
It's just the one 8 year old that I'm speaking of. I must admit I'm a bit wary because we have seen cases before where LE successfully persuaded people into confessing to something they didn't do. Children are especially susceptible to this....the fact that he was interrogated without a parent, attorney, or advocate present just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Last I heard was that the prosecution is seeking a plea and, as part of it, agreed to basically leave it in the juvenile courts. IMO, if the 8 year old did do it, the juvenile courts is exactly where it belongs, plea or no plea.
And how right you are about the "god-complex" many people in power have! I am learning that the "truth" of a matter is rarely a concern for the prosecution - they are more concerned with building and winning a case....and if the person they accuse is guilty, great...if not?? Oh well, they should prove their innocence.
People simply accused of something are assumed guilty and have an uphill battle from the start - forget those trying to prove their innocence post-conviction...just ask the WM3 how difficult that is.
_________________
"Evil triumphs when good men do nothing."
- E. Burke
__________________________________________
That's OK. I wasn't using my civil liberties anyway. (Insert rolly eye emoticon here) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JUSTICE1st
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 715
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kristi wrote: | | JUSTICE1st wrote: |
As I mentioned once, I wrote to now President-Elect Obama when he was "Senator Obama," earlier this year. I'm definitely not afraid to write him another one, but I will wait until he formally takes office, since it makes no sense to write at this point. Hmmm...maybe I'll just write the letter now, but save it for mailing later.
J |
I cant remember where exactly, somewhere on the ACLU website they said Obama's staff was excepting letters, scratch that, asking for letters from citizens explaining what they would like to see done. I cant for the life of me remember where on the site I saw it, as I was combing through hundreds of sites yesterday looking for was to raise quick funds for Raye's lawyer, but its somewhere on aclu.org |
Hi Kristi, long time, no see! I hope Raye Dawn is doing okay, despite the circumstances? I haven't looked at the other site in the last couple of months, things just got to be too hostile from the Briggs supporters.
Thanks for letting us know about the page on the ACLU website, and I'm glad to see our new President may be open to accepting ideas, even if he might not immediately act on them. Personally, I'm tired of seeing the travesties by our so-called "criminal justice" system being completely ignored by our government, especially since we as citizens deserve better.
J
_________________
"We must remember, always, that accusation is not proof, and conviction depends on evidence and due process of law."
EDWARD R. MURROW, 1954 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JUSTICE1st
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 715
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SaberGal wrote: | | Pia wrote: | Is the eight year old you mentioned the one who killed his father and another man? Please tell me there were not two eight-year olds that have killed people recently...or ever.
Are there any updates on that case?
As far as Obama, I hope writing to him will get some attention but I really don't see it happening. They have turned their backs on this kind of thing because most people are under the assumption that if they are convicted, they MUST be guilty. Just like prosecutors that refuse to do anything to help someone that they KNOW is innocent. Once a person is convicted you have to walk through fire to get the truth out. Doing that easily will mean that they have to admit to a mistake. Because a lot of them think they are God and not human, THEY could never be guilty of making a mistake.
|
It's just the one 8 year old that I'm speaking of. I must admit I'm a bit wary because we have seen cases before where LE successfully persuaded people into confessing to something they didn't do. Children are especially susceptible to this....the fact that he was interrogated without a parent, attorney, or advocate present just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Last I heard was that the prosecution is seeking a plea and, as part of it, agreed to basically leave it in the juvenile courts. IMO, if the 8 year old did do it, the juvenile courts is exactly where it belongs, plea or no plea.
And how right you are about the "god-complex" many people in power have! I am learning that the "truth" of a matter is rarely a concern for the prosecution - they are more concerned with building and winning a case....and if the person they accuse is guilty, great...if not?? Oh well, they should prove their innocence.
People simply accused of something are assumed guilty and have an uphill battle from the start - forget those trying to prove their innocence post-conviction...just ask the WM3 how difficult that is. |
No joke!  I remember when I used to ask some of those GPs on the old board how they'd feel if an unjust and unfounded accusation of any crime were made against them, and few of them, if any, even bothered to answer the question. I'd be willing none of them had ever read THE INNOCENT MAN, or Dennis Fritz's book JOURNEY TOWARD JUSTICE, and if they did, they still wouldn't admit the "justice system" made any kind of mistake.
That's why I think it's so important for all of us to read these and other books, because they tell us that the nightmare of a false/mistaken accusation and worse, a wrongful conviction CAN happen to an innocent person. Especially one without the funds to hire the best defense team possible.
J
_________________
"We must remember, always, that accusation is not proof, and conviction depends on evidence and due process of law."
EDWARD R. MURROW, 1954 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pia
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 208
Location: www.freecynthia.com
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SaberGal wrote: | | Pia wrote: | Is the eight year old you mentioned the one who killed his father and another man? Please tell me there were not two eight-year olds that have killed people recently...or ever.
Are there any updates on that case?
As far as Obama, I hope writing to him will get some attention but I really don't see it happening. They have turned their backs on this kind of thing because most people are under the assumption that if they are convicted, they MUST be guilty. Just like prosecutors that refuse to do anything to help someone that they KNOW is innocent. Once a person is convicted you have to walk through fire to get the truth out. Doing that easily will mean that they have to admit to a mistake. Because a lot of them think they are God and not human, THEY could never be guilty of making a mistake.
|
It's just the one 8 year old that I'm speaking of. I must admit I'm a bit wary because we have seen cases before where LE successfully persuaded people into confessing to something they didn't do. Children are especially susceptible to this....the fact that he was interrogated without a parent, attorney, or advocate present just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Last I heard was that the prosecution is seeking a plea and, as part of it, agreed to basically leave it in the juvenile courts. IMO, if the 8 year old did do it, the juvenile courts is exactly where it belongs, plea or no plea.
And how right you are about the "god-complex" many people in power have! I am learning that the "truth" of a matter is rarely a concern for the prosecution - they are more concerned with building and winning a case....and if the person they accuse is guilty, great...if not?? Oh well, they should prove their innocence.
People simply accused of something are assumed guilty and have an uphill battle from the start - forget those trying to prove their innocence post-conviction...just ask the WM3 how difficult that is. |
I totally agree Saber. I don't even think juvenile court is where he belongs if he did indeed do this. How on earth can he understand what happened and why? How can we "punish" a small child like this? I am sorry but I don't think I could ever believe that a child of this age is not beyond help. Let’s find out WHY he did it before we turn him into a true criminal.
Hell, I’m still pissed off with the Christopher Pittman case and also the King brothers in Florida.
What makes a child kill the only people who cared about them? That is what we need to find out.
_________________
Justice is conscience, not a personal conscience but the conscience of the whole of humanity. Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience usually recognize also the voice of justice.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
